older female not loving my new female puppy…

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  • #14610
    kerrynoel
    Participant

    Hey all

    Ive always had pits, but ive only had pairs of males & females…and this time i have Kenzi (whose my 11 yr old female rescue) and I just found a 11 wk old female puppy…who we are madly in love with…Im concerned about the things ive heard over the years about having 2 females together who weren’t raised together and fights etc….the little one, Ruby, just wants to play and Kenzi is just over her….she growls, shows teeth, an has been snapping to get Ruby to stop nipping at her….BUT she doesnt leave any marks…SO not wanting to take ANY chances I’m always observing them, and NEVER leave them alone together (Ive been crate training the baby)…Is Kenzi teaching Ruby how to have some manners? or is this a disaster waiting to happen? We’ve had a lot of tragedy around our dogs lately, so we want to be careful with these two! We adopted a 3yr old male from a kill shelter and ultimately had to put him down over the holidays bc he became vicious 🙁 and then last week my moms 12 yr old male had cancer so I had to put him down….very sad sad sad….then Ruby came to us last Sunday….

    Sorry for rambling but welcoming any advice!

     

    #16656
    go ask alice
    Participant

    i wouldnt worry to much about it, i have a 4 month old female pit and a 8 year old wolf husky shepherd x and thats all they ever do.
    Alice (my pit) is always wanting to play, but my older dog will growl, push ect ect but its not like she wants to kill her, its because shes trying to teach her her own boundaries.
    Just like us, dogs have there limits, for example, i saw alice trying to sneak a bite out of the garbage yesterday, i immediatly corrected her, showing that i DO NOT want that, just like your older dog, she DOES NOT WANT a puppy jumping at her face, so she’ll let her know, after awhile and once the pup relises the older dog is not interested, she’ll move on.
    But always give your older dog a helping hand, if the pup is jumping at her face tell her “no jumping!” or get her attention with something else, dont reward her for it tho, you dont want her thinking jumping up is a good thing.

    I definatly dont think its a disaster waiting to happen, i’ve always had more then one female dog, usually pit bulls to. What your older dog is basically saying is your a puppy, im not, dont treat me like im a puppy because im not.

    Im really sorry to hear about your dog passing away, i understand how hard that is.
    Just keep up with corrections, routine, exercise and love and you and your dogs will be much happier, like the saying goes, a good dog is a tired dog.

    Good luck!

    #16659
    kerrynoel
    Participant

    Thank you SO much!!!! I guess after all that we just went through, i was getting a bit panicked!

    #16669
    KaylasMom
    Participant

    I am not trying to scare you, but generally speaking, same-sex households contribute to same-sex aggression, with females being typically worse than males.  While you may have had same-sex groupings in the past, every dog is an individual and may not like another dog, especially of the same sex.  Many people make it work, but you have to be oh so dilligent about EVERYTHING that you do (feeding schedules, crating, monitoring EVERYTHING, etc.).  If you look any pit rescues, many will not adopt a dog to you if you already have a dog of the same sex. 

    You also have two dogs who are VASTLY different in age, and that can also cause a problem, also with being the same sex.  The senior in your group may not want to tolerate the little one’s boisteriousness, and by snapping at her, showing her teeth, she is trying to tell her off without really hurting her.  At this point, that isn’t an issues, but at some point, she may decide that warnings are not enough and acutally hurt the little one.  This is something that you need to take heed of EVERY minute of EVERY day with two same-sex dogs with siuh a space in age!  Make sure that the puppy gets a lot of play time on her own and when she is worn out, that may be the time to allow her with the senior.  As alice said, a good dog is a tired dog. 

    Keep in mind that pit bulls are slow to mature, with maturity hitting at around 2-3 years of age, sometimes 4 years old!  As your little one matures, she may not want to tolerate the warnings of your older dog, and she may become aggressive with your senior.  That is NOT what you want!

    Pit bulls, and any breed of dog for that matter, can and do interact peacefully with other dogs, but individual temperament, early & proper socialization of ALL dogs, and excellent management on your part is the key to make a same-sex household exist.  Things may not be rough right now, but just keep in mind that this is only the beginning!  We have many dogs (of all breeds) that come into my clinic to be stitched up from being attacked by their fellow dog family member(s).  It is usually been determineid that it was becasue of same-sex dogs or a large age difference. 

    It would be a good idea to take the puppy to classes when she is old enough, to learn how to get along with older dogs, and the same might be good for your older dog.  Take her to classes so she can learn how to interact with such young dogs.  Many shelters offer free classes! 

    Also, make sure that you learn A LOT about dog body language.  By learning about the different degrees that a dog holds her tail, the different types of tail wagging, whale eye, head movements, leg movements, stance, etc., you can help eliminate many future issues by being able to read your dogs and stop any issues before they happen.  Not being able to read a dog is one of the main reasons dogs bite people and their family member dogs.  People don’t know what they are looking for when a dog gives a warning.  Many warnings are extremely subtle, and by knowing what to look for, you could save a lot of distress for you and the dogs!

    One more thing, make sure all your dogs are spayed!  By keping hormone levels down to a minimum, that will help lower potential aggressive tendencies, but it isn’t 100%.

    #16670
    kerrynoel
    Participant

    Thank you SO much…I think it’s now escalating to a degree…when Kenzi (the old lady) gets irritated she gets WAAAY more aggressive with Ruby (the baby), now she will actually lunge toward her, but at the same time Ruby does the downward dog positions and yips at her, which seems to aggravate Kenzi all the more…Ruby just doesnt stop…she wants Kenzis attention and approval (it seems like) so badly that she tries to lay with her while they are chillin…if the puppy gets too close kenzi will growl….but if Ruby stops, the thats all it is….The funny thing is that after a growl & a seemingly dangerous SNAP, theres no marks or injury on the puppy….is this warning or disaster waiting to happen?

    The  other good thing, i think, is that now kenzi allows the puppy to lean on her, or she lets her kinda stand on her….at first that was never tolerated….so i dont know, maybe it is getting better? last night not only did kenzi let the puppy sleep on her head, but they also both laid next to each other on kenzis bed while eating their bones…

     

    What do you think?

     

     

     

    #16671
    kerrynoel
    Participant

    Hey all

    Does anyone in the nyc/brooklyn area know of any free obedience classes (or inexpensive-ish) for my older girl to help ease the stress of the new puppy? The new puppy is starting puppy kindergarten on feb 13th 

    Thanks!!!

    #16672
    KaylasMom
    Participant

    It sounds like Kenzi is begining to get irritated.  If there are any types of snaps and it isn’t in play, it could lead to a full out bite and more.  Warning snaps, growling, and what not only go on for so long before the dog bites out of utter annoyance.  In all fairness though, your older dog may be trying to establish the rules of puppy etiquette.  While biting is not allowed, a bit of dog “talk” is intended to remind the pup of her position in life.  For now, that means low man on the totem pole.  Mothers establish rules, and your pup is no longer with her mother.  Kenzi may be deciding on how far to let your pup be a pup.  She is also an adult and may be demanding “respect” from the child, not to mention personal space, just like humans do.  I do not mean to humanize the dogs, but it is a good way to explain. We don’t want kids bothering us 24 hours of the day, and neither do older dogs.  Puppies before the age of 5 months tend to not be familiar with the subtle body gestures that adult dogs give when they have had enough.  Adult dogs that were not properly socialized as a pup to all different ages of dogs throughout their lifetime will have a harder time dealing with a pup.  So, it goes both ways.     

    Did you initially introduce them gradually and on neutral territory?  If not, then you may need to rewind and start over.  Initial introductions are of utmost importance in the dog world.  You cannot just throw a couple of dogs together who have never seen one another and expect everything to be hunky dory for the rest of their lives.  Just like how first impressions mean a lot in the human world; same thing applies to dogs.  Maybe you and a friend could take them somewhere neutral and help to “re-socialize” them in a different location.  Give them treats and gradually move them closer together and treat them the whole way.  You want your older girl to associate the pup and her presence with good things.  Take them on walks together (with another person walking one of your dogs) and do fun things that won’t always aggravate Kenzi.  Everything needs to be positive.  Take it slow!   

    While you are at home, keep them separated a bit more.  If it were me, I would put the puppy in Kenzi’s least favorite room, or somewhere where Kenzi doesn’t spend a ton of time.  You want to allow Kenzi to have the run of the house still, as you do not want her to resent the pup for being there.  Treat Kenzi the same way you always have.  She may be feeling “jealous” towards the pup and another dog being in HER house.  Swapping scents sometimes helps too.  Switch bedding from their crates to they get used to each other’s smell.

    Without reading Kenzi’s body language and vocalizations, it is hard for us on this end to know what is going on and what could happen.  I think that allowing Kenzi some personal space and time on her own without the pup getting in her face would be a good thing.  Yes, they need to be socialized together, but if Kenzi is already making noises and movements towards the pup that could be read as aggressive, then there needs to be some time-outs away from each other.

    The nature of the perceived aggression from Kenzi needs to be identified before you can “fix” an issue.  Has Kenzi been to the vet for a senior checkup lately to rule out any pain issues or health issues?  Many dogs who are in pain, especially older dogs, can get grouchy around other dogs, especially those with tons of energy like a pup.  They are “not in the mood” or “feel up to it” to put up with a youngster.  There was a lady who came into the clinic for an exam with an older Newfoundland and mentioned that her older dog was snapping and growling at a foster pup that the family was taking care of.  They had never had that problem with other pups in the past.  Lo and behold, we found an issue and later was diagnosed as cancer.  More than likely, the older Newffie was reacting to his illness towards the pup.  It is always a good idea to take current dogs to the vet for a checkup to make sure that they are “fit” to handle a pup or small, exuberent dog.

    Has Kenzi showed any type of aggressive behavior PRIOR to the puppy?  If Kenzi had behaviorial issues and very little obedience training prior to the pup, that could be an issue also.  Keep in mind that if this is the case, Kenzi could turn around and teach the pup bad manners and then you will have a real challenge on your hands! 

    Just make sure that you constantly and consistently monitor the situation at all times and help assure that your pup does not infringe upon the dignity of the older dog.  You may need to control the amount of time that they spend together.  Wear the pup out a lot before allowing her to mingle with Kenzi.  Both dogs should have crates, and that those crates are NOT used to punish; only to separate when need be.  The need their own time alone, time with you, and time together.  Get your pup into some positive training as you soon as you can, as you are undoubtedly seeing that she has some spunk and could be a bit strong willed.  You have to teach her what is right from wrong before trouble occurs.  They aren’t born with that knowledge!     🙂

    #16674
    KaylasMom
    Participant

    There is a meetup group called American Pit Bull & Bully Club Tri-State that is based out of Brooklyn, I believe.  There would be a lot of owners there that could give you guidance and could also help with socialization.

    Out of the Pits is an Albany, NY organization that would probably have resources for NY pit bull owners and could direct you.  http://www.outofthepits.org

    The NYC ASPCA may also be able to provide guidance on pit friendly classes.  Many communities offer low-cost to free classes especially for pit bulls.  By contacting one of these organizations, they could probably guide you in the right direction. 

    The Animal Farm Foundation, Inc is strictly pit bulls!  They have done such wonderful things for the pit bull and it’s reputation.  Visit their website at http://www.animalfarmfoundation.org

    I hope that you can find something through one of these groups.  There are many more connections out there, but I think that this would be a start for you!  Make some phone calls and see what you can find out.  You will get a lot of happy people thanking you for trying to make the lives of your pitties the best that they can be!  🙂

     

     

     

    #16676
    kerrynoel
    Participant

    THANK YOU SOOOOO MUCH!!! Really, you have been such a godsend 🙂 Ill keep you posted

    #16691
    KaylasMom
    Participant

    Yes, please keep us posted!  I really hope that you find a group that can provide guidence and things get better!  🙂

    #16952

    Intoduced a young pup to her elder half sister when the elder was 18 months the pup 8 weeks. a marriage made in heaven i wrongly assumed.they played for hours together in our gardenthen when the ‘pup’ reached 1year old the play fighting became more intense.until it reached a peak when my poor wife had 2 spend an hour seperating them as u could imagine blood ,vet bills and high trauma.Both dogs from then on had 2 be kept in there locked crates(crates being ther beds in our home but that is another question i must try 2 answer re cage training)this became a ritual of our life 1 in other out( i have a huge garden) ofc our young kids didnt realise this so the two met face to face 6 months later carnage .Luckily both survived and my vet bill soared’my daughter has now left home with the elder so we no longer have the stress of ‘1 in 1 out’. The reason for this ramble is that with the type of dogs we own and love keeping 2 of the same sex together is akin 2 playing russian roulette.

    #16953

    Intoduced a young pup to her elder half sister when the elder was 18 months the pup 8 weeks. a marriage made in heaven i wrongly assumed.they played for hours together in our gardenthen when the ‘pup’ reached 1year old the play fighting became more intense.until it reached a peak when my poor wife had 2 spend an hour seperating them as u could imagine blood ,vet bills and high trauma.Both dogs from then on had 2 be kept in there locked crates(crates being ther beds in our home but that is another question i must try 2 answer re cage training)this became a ritual of our life 1 in other out( i have a huge garden) ofc our young kids didnt realise this so the two met face to face 6 months later carnage .Luckily both survived and my vet bill soared’my daughter has now left home with the elder so we no longer have the stress of ‘1 in 1 out’. The reason for this ramble is that with the type of dogs we own and love keeping 2 of the same sex together is akin 2 playing russian roulette.

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